11 years ago
Friday
Freewill or Fantasy?
I WAS VERY INTRIGUED BY OUR CLASS DISCUSSION ON FREEWILL AND WEATHER OR NOT IT IN FACT EXISTS OR IT IS JUST AN ILLUSION. WHAT I FOUND TO BE INTERESTING WAS THE VARIOUS OPINIONS OF MY CLASSMATES, SOME BELIEVED THAT THE UNIVERSE IS DETERMINISTIC AND THEREFOR FREEWILL CANNOT EXIST, AND OTHERS (LIKE OUR PROFESSOR) BELIEVED THAT FREEWILL IS SIMPLY THE CHOICES WE MAKE, WEATHER THEY ARE INFLUENCED OR NOT BY OUTSIDE FORCES, THEY ARE NEVER THE LESS A CHOICE THAT WE ALONE DECIDE IN OUR MINDS TO MAKE. I BELIVE THAT BOTH CAN BE TRUE. ALTHOUGH IT IN INEVITABLE FOR US TO BE INFLUINECED IN OUR ACTIONS BY MANY FACTORS SUCH AS FAMILY, SOCIETY ETC. WE ARE ALSO FREE TO THINK, DECIDE AND MAKE CHOICES THAT SOMETIMES MIGHT BE CONTRARY TO WHAT IS EXPECTED OF US. ANY DECISION CAN BE SCRUTINIEZED AND GIVEN SCIENTIFIC CONNECTIONS BUT I DONT BELIEVE THAT DIMINISHES THAT FACT THAT IT IS STILL OUR WILL THAT DECIDED THE ACTION. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?
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Like you said, I personally believe that it's both. I don't believe that there is free will because one can have the standpoint where we are under the influences of our emotions and our impulses (and you can probably say your intellect as well) to do things. These are all parts of your mind that have been built over the years to "perform" a certain way (which one of our sociologists do you think would believe this?), but as Professor Tabor says, we have the free will to act on these impulses or not.
Let's get a little more in depth with that that concept, we have the ability to choose what we do in society, therefore it's freedom. The question of freedom goes more with a philosophical standpoint. Let's try to answer it with another question, is it really freedom when we don't even know we have the option to choose? Most would argue that if we don't have the option, then we do not have the freedom. I quote from a conversation with my friend about the outcome of proposition 8, "I don't have the urge to get married anytime soon, but I would love to just have the option." There is no freedom "within" the society because that society is what grants the social institution of marriage.
The issue of freedom can be both "we are free" and "we are not free", depending on which level we're debating about. One can choose how they feel by either holding on or letting go of certain emotions, but in a larger scale within the context of the society the rules do not allow for certain things to take place.
Meli Marx: good post, but I want to "tweak" what you said I said. I do not say that freewill is simply the choices one makes. Free will is the feeling of freedom - the experience of freedom. Someone asked, "isn't that an illusion?" I answered, "Yes, it's an illusion - but what isn't?"
DreamWalker: = ) I am not one to say, "we have the free will to act on impulses or not." That sounds like a "Catholic" position on free will. I'm not saying that position is wrong - just that it is not what I said.
Freedom is the feeling of freedom that we sometimes, not always, have "inside". Free will is an experience.
As an internal experience, it is different from external causes. They both exist and they are not in contradiction. That's the way I look at it.
Saying that "everything is an illusion" reminds me of a debate I had a few years back, the difference between Ethnomethodology versus Symbolic Interactionism. There is a fine line between the two that some people can probably confuse, but at the same time they can both be used to explain the mundane understanding of everyday life.
Saying everything is an illusion dismisses the utility of the word illusion. It becomes a black hole. But, paradoxically, that is the fate of every word for by their very nature they are constructions to allow action between us. As Hamlet learned, there is no "truth" - or, rather, there is, but it continues to slip away and appear later "over there" or "here it is." Truth moves.
So I was merely distinguishing between truth we experience (e.g., a feeling of freedom we have at times) and truth as that which we are told "is" - e.g., a social "cause" or determinant.
Ethnometh and S.I. fit into this dichotomy: the ethnomethodologist looks at culture from the outside as if the participants are so "in" it that they cannot see it, and S.I. sees society constructed by us from the inside as meaning-makers. They are on either side of that Looking Glass Self.
I've been trying to make a memory recall of the debate for the past few days and it's been coming back piece by piece after every time I wake, but anyway, that's what I remember eventually happening with the debates. The debate was about which form of theory was best used to understand society and both parties came to the conclusion that both Ethnomethodology and S.I. are best used together and they're each one side of the same coin.
I somewhat agree with the other posts. I think that "free will" is an illusion, and an illusion is something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality. Technically, "free will" is a state of mind.
"Free will" is all about control. There are things that we have control over, and there are things that we don't have control over. We control how well we do on a test by studying, but we have no control over our skin color. We have control over coming to class, but if your gay in America, you don't have "free will" to marry who you want. I don't believe in illusions, so I don't believe in "free will". As a gay women of color, I do not believe that I have the same "free will" as a heterosexual white person.
Another Per: I am pointing to the point from which we experience the world, with its social constraints, and decide to do this rather than that: buy this or buy that; buy that or resist; say something or remain quiet; react to an unknown with resistance or curiosity; become angry or understand anger - etc. Our two views (definitions) are not in conflict. It's language: I would call your referents constraints. That we have constraints does not mean that we, at times, experience the moment of choice.
That moment is what choice is.
THANKS FOR THE COMMENT ANOTHER PERSP. YOU BRING UP A GOOD POINT. IT IS TRUE THAT WE DO NOT ALL SHARE IN THE SAME POSSIBILITY OF DECISIONS BECAUSE OF OUTSIDE RESTRAINTS RELATED TO CLASS, ETHNICITY, SEX, ORIENTATION ETC. BUT I DONT THINK THAT THIS TAKES AWAY OUR FREE WILL (OR THE IDEA OF IT), IT SIMPLY CREATES BARRIERS WHICH ARE ALL UNIQUE TO EACH INDIVIDUAL. YOU MADE A COMMENT ABOUT YOUR ABILITY TO MARRY AS OPPOSED TO SOMEONE WHO WAS HETOROSEXUAL, ANYONE CAN MAKE A SIMILAR ARGUEMENT ON DIFFERENT TERMS. FOR EXAMPLE, IF I SAID WELL IT IS MY WILL TO GO OUT AND BUY A MERCEDEZ, WELL UNFORTUNATLY FOR ME I DO NOT HAVE THE ECONOMIC RESOURCES TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN BECAUSE I AM OF LOW ECONOMIC STATUS, BUT DOES THAT MEAN THAT I DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL? I DONT THINK SO, INSTEAD I COULD DECIDE TO SAVE UP UNTIL I CAN IN FACT AFFORD IT, I SIMPLY THINK THAT WE ALL HAVE FREE WILL BUT WE ALL EXPERIENCE IT IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS. ALTHOUGH YOU MAY NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO DECIDE TO MARRY AT YOUR WILL YOU CAN FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT AND PERHAPS ACHIVE YOUR GOAL, AND THAT TO ME IS YOUR FREE WILL IN ACTION!
Freewill is a very complex topic. Many can argue both ways and give different kinds of example of why its one way and not other. I think that people believe either way because of the way they see things. Some of us mey believe that we have a say on our life; however, others may say that some times we are drag toward it. There's no correct answer.
Meli Marx, you make a great point. I think that we are looking at free will in two different ways. I completely agree that we ALL have "choices", but we should not confuse choice with free will. I have to be honest with myself, and I don't personally believe that I have free will as a black lesbian woman living in America. When you live in a racist, sexiest, and homophobic society that dictates and controls everything, how can free will exist?
AP: ok let me withdraw the use of the word free will. the word is choice. you had a choice - you felt it: you thought, "Oh, I'll write this comment." That feeling of volition is what I refer to as choice and sometimes (provocatively) even call free will, pointing out that free will is a feeling.
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